Science and Faith
Science and Faith
Catholic Outlook
Catholic Outlook
Catholic Outlook
Science and Faith
Science and Faith
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Catholic Outlook
Catholic Outlook
Dialogue on “Motionless” Satellites
(Part 2)
How the existence of geostationary satellites
proves that the earth rotates
Gary Hoge
__________ About this Dialogue __________
A continuation of my dialogue with Catholic geocentrist Bob Sungenis. My words are in black, and Bob’s are in blue.
I have not responded herein to every point you made in your last, rather lengthy, reply, but I believe I’ve hit the highlights. More importantly, I think I’ve come up with a few facts that are simply impossible to account for in a geocentric universe. I’ll send you my address shortly so you can mail me the check. :-)
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As I understand it, the real issue we’re discussing here isn’t GPS satellites in particular, but geosynchronous satellites in general, right? I mean, I’m assuming you just chose GPS satellites as a convenient example, right? Well, if so, we’re going to have to pick a different example because I did a little research, and it turns out that the GPS satellites are not in geosynchronous orbits. There are 24 satellites in the GPS network, operating in six different orbital planes, but each GPS satellite orbits at an altitude of only about 12,000 miles (about half the altitude of a geosynchronous satellite) and makes two complete orbits of the earth in less than 24 hours. So let’s forget the GPS satellites and consider instead a truly geosynchronous satellite, such as a Telstar communication satellite.
I already explained this difference in my last post to you. I said I had used the term GPS for both the satellites at 11,000 and 22,000 miles, the latter being geosynchronous.
Yes, I see now that you did. I must have accidentally skipped over that paragraph when I read your response. Sorry. I’m glad you’re aware that you were misusing the term “GPS.” Don’t worry about it, though, we all make mistakes. I haven’t been very precise in my terminology, either, because I haven’t distinguished between geosynchronous and geostationary satellites. Geosynchronous satellites orbit the earth once a day, but their orbits may be highly elliptical and they may be inclined relative to the equator. Geostationary orbits are a special case of geosynchronous orbit in which the orbit is nearly circular and is aligned with the equator. Thus, a satellite in a geostationary orbit will appear to more or less hover near the same spot in the sky.
First, the “Challenge” requires you to prove that the earth is rotating on an axis and/or revolving around the sun.
Right, and because I think it’s easier to prove that the earth is rotating on an axis, that’s the approach I’ve chosen to take. Now, given the obviously quixotic nature of trying to convince you that the earth rotates, some people may wonder why I keep trying. There are two reasons. First, I’m just doing what anybody would do who sees a brother running toward a cliff – I’m trying to stop him. You may not be aware of it, but your advocacy of geocentrism is rapidly destroying your credibility, and I fear that you will soon lose everything you’ve worked so hard to build. Several people – priests as well as laymen – have already told me they’ll no longer read your books or recommend you to non-Catholics. I hate to see that happen, and for the life of me I can’t understand why you’re willing to fall on your sword over this issue, but that’s your choice. Which brings us to my second reason for pursuing this dialogue. If you insist on going down in flames, I want to make sure you don’t take me and the rest of the Catholic apologetics community down with you. If I and other Catholics sit silently by while you wrongly assert that geocentrism is the official teaching of the Church, we’ll have only ourselves to blame for the scorn and ridicule that will be coming our way.
Second, you haven’t proven that the earth rotates. All you have done is given us a mathematical formula from Newtonian gravitational mechanics that certain men use to send up the space shuttle into orbit, or any object that must travel around the earth.
Right, and according to that formula the higher the orbit, the longer the period. Low-flying satellites orbit the earth every few hours, higher-flying satellites take longer. The moon takes a month to make one orbit. According to this formula, if you put a satellite into a 35,786 kilometer orbit, it’ll take 24 hours to make one orbit. The fact that such satellites don’t appear to move much relative to the surface of the earth proves that the surface of the earth also makes one revolution every 24 hours.
But the math doesn’t prove that the earth rotates. The only thing math does for certain is put in proportion the various forces one observes. As I said in my last post, Newton did not explain what made one object attracted to another. He only showed the results of the attraction in a mathematical formula, and he had to inject his Gravitational Constant in order to do so. Thus, all the formulas you offer us, don’t prove that the earth rotates.
I’m not saying they do, at least not directly. Those formulas predict the orbital motion of satellites, and the fact that NASA is able to send satellites and deep-space probes exactly where it wants them to go based on those formulas proves that the formulas work. They’ve worked for the space shuttle, the Hubble telescope, the Apollo moon rockets, the Mars Pathfinder, and Pioneer 10. They are also able to predict exactly the altitude at which a satellite’s orbital period will match the rotation of the earth, if the earth is rotating: 35,786 kilometers. That’s what prompted scientists put satellites into an orbit of 35,786 kilometers when they wanted to achieve a geostationary orbit. The fact that this worked proves that their assumptions were correct. Your reply that, well, there must be a force of some kind at that specific altitude that just happens to exactly counteract the earth’s gravity is an absurd and, frankly, embarrassing bit of special pleading. If I put forward such a ridiculous assertion in defense of heliocentrism, you’d laugh me off your computer screen, and rightly so.
Now let me address your questions about the GSS [GeoSynchronous Satellites] in more detail. The science books tell us that all satellites and all planets follow Kepler’s law in their revolutions. For example, after describing Kepler’s perigee and apogee revolutions, Franklyn Branley in The Moon: Earth’s Natural Satellite, says: “The velocity of all the planets and all the natural and man-made satellites varies in a similar manner” (p. 23). But here’s the problem. GSS are man-made satellites that do not follow Kepler’s law, for they are said to travel at the same distance from the earth (22,236 miles) at each moment of revolution. So how is it that all other satellites and planets obey Kepler’s laws of motion, except the GSS?
Actually, you’re wrong, and this is really the nail in the coffin of geocentrism: Geostationary satellites don’t orbit in a perfect circle! They can be thought of as doing so, but the truth is their orbit is slightly elliptical. GOES 8 for example, has an apogee of 35,799 km and a perigee of 35,783 km. Telstar 5 has an apogee of 35,799 km and a perigee of 35,773 km. And Directv 2 has an apogee of 35,796 km and a perigee of 35,777 km. So these satellites aren’t completely stationary. They move toward and away from the earth, which makes them speed up and slow down. This makes them appear to oscillate east-and-west. Also, since the geostationary orbital plane is not coincident with the plane of the earth’s orbit around the sun (the ecliptic) or that of the moon’s orbit around the earth, the gravitational attraction of the sun and the moon act to gradually pull the geostationary satellites out of their equatorial orbit, gradually increasing the satellite’s orbital inclination. In addition, the noncircular shape of the earth’s equator causes these satellites to be slowly drawn to one of two stable equilibrium points along the equator, resulting in an east-west libration (drifting back and forth) about these points. To counteract these effects, each geostationary satellite has an onboard propulsion system that it uses to periodically correct any changes to its orbit, in order to keep its daily north-south and east-west drift within the ground antenna’s beamwidth. These periodic corrections are known as stationkeeping.
These facts present a serious (and I think unanswerable) problem for your geocentric theory, because you claim that these satellites aren’t really orbiting the earth. You claim they’re just sitting there, suspended motionless in space. How then do you account for the daily relative motion of these satellites? Because their orbits aren’t perfectly circular they don’t just sit there. In fact, they oscillate east-and-west slightly at a rate of two cycles per sidereal day. Also, they oscillate toward and away from the earth every day between the apogee and perigee of their orbits. And just to make things especially inexplicable to a geocentrist, each satellite oscillates a different amount. GOES 8, for example, oscillates toward and away from the earth 16 km every day. Telstar 5 oscillates 26 km, and Directv 2 oscillates 19 km. It’s easy to account for this motion if the satellites are in slightly elliptical orbits around a rotating earth, but how do you account for it?
This is rather significant, since Kepler’s laws were formulated precisely to support the Heliocentric system, since Copernicancus’ original model of planets going around the sun in circular orbits had more problems than the Ptolemaic system it replaced. So what’s this tell us? That scientists simply have no explanation for why the GSS satellites work.
Sure they do. For one thing, as I just pointed out, geostationary satellites orbit in a slightly elliptical path. But even if their orbits were perfectly circular, so what? A circle is just a special case of an ellipse (in which both foci overlap). Further, Newton observed that there are four possible orbital paths in a gravitational field: elliptical, circular, hyperbolic, and parabolic.
You asked me later in your letter if there was a “red flag.” Yes there is, but it’s in your camp, obviously, because here you have a satellite that doesn’t obey any of the Keplerian laws of orbiting bodies! But I do have an explanation. The GSS are not orbiting the earth. They are hovering over the earth in a gravitational and/or electromagnetic band precisely 22,236 miles above the earth. The next time you look at one of those satellite weather maps on TV which show a stationary earth but clouds moving across it in time-lapse photography, think about this.
Okay, let me see if I have this straight. When NASA wanted to put the first geostationary satellite into orbit, its engineers calculated that in order to orbit the earth once every 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4 seconds (a sidereal day), a satellite would have to be put into a nearly circular orbit 35,786 kilometers high. But NASA was wrong. The earth doesn’t rotate at all, and so when the satellite reached 35,786 kilometers, it wouldn’t orbit at all; instead it would come to a complete stop. Now, you would think that it would have dropped like a rock, straight down, in a stunning disproof of heliocentrism. But instead, in the most amazing coincidence in the history of the world, it turns out that there just happens to be “a gravitational and/or electromagnetic band precisely 22,236 miles above the earth,” and this band just happens to exactly counteract the earth’s gravity. What luck!
Is that what you want us all to believe? Is that what you think is a more plausible explanation of geostationary satellites than a rotating earth?
As I said in my answer to your first Challenge, the GPS scientist abandons his Relativity theory in order to use a fixed-Earth for his calculations. You must understand that when they make the calculations for the GPS from a fixed-Earth position, they are not doing it for simulation or practice before they do the real thing. The article in Physics Today I gave you states that they must use fixed-Earth calculations, because they are the only ones that work. This gives me a chance to answer even better your first Challenge question, which concerned the GSS technician who positions the GSS while thinking that it is going 6800 mph. I have a letter from the Office of Satellite Operations in Washington DC concerning the repositioning of a GSS satellite 10.75 degrees, asking this question: “Is the present movement of GOES (a GSS satellite) planned and executed on the basis of a fixed earth or a rotating earth?” The answer, written by Lee Ranne from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration on 11-22-1989 (I have her phone number if you want it) says “Fixed earth.”
Did you ask Lee Ranne if she concludes from this that the earth doesn’t rotate? Somehow I doubt that she does, because there’s no need to. If you have two objects moving at the same angular velocity, you can ignore that velocity and concentrate on their relative velocities. It’s the same thing you do when you pass a car on the interstate. You don’t worry about how a 65 mph car can pass a 60 mph car, instead you act as if you’re passing a stationary car at 5 mph.
Do you know what that really means? Here’s the upshot: If the earth must be fixed in order for them to make the correct calculations of an existing GSS satellite, then this means the GSS must also be fixed in order for them to make the correct repositioning calculations.
No, it means nothing of the sort. It simply means that if two objects are going more or less the same speed, you can factor that out and worry about correcting the slight relative speed.
Obviously, you can’t make repositioning calculations of a GSS going 6800 mph against a fixed earth.
Of course not, but you could make repositioning calculations of a GSS going 6,800 mph against a rotating earth. Of course, why would you want to? It’s simply an easier calculation to act as if both are fixed. But that mathematical simplification doesn’t necessarily reflect reality. Indeed, didn’t you tell me before that my orbital mathematics don’t prove that the earth rotates? Well, you can’t have it both ways, sir. You can’t argue that a “fixed earth” calculation done for convenience sake proves that the earth really is fixed.
If the GSS was not stopped, it would continue to travel 6800 mph (about 2 miles per second) and be way out of position for any adjustments.
Yeah, unless the earth were moving, too. The GSS travels at 6,800 mph relative to fixed space, not relative to the surface of the earth.
So it must be stopped and regarded as fixed just as the author of the above letter regards the earth as fixed. But how do they stop it if it’s going 6800mph and still save Copernicanism? They do it with fixed earth and fixed GSS mathematics but still think that the Earth and the GSS are rotating. His Copernican belief system forces him to think that the earth is rotating and the GSS is traveling at 6800, but he knows he can’t reposition the GSS on that basis, so he switches to a fixed earth and fixed GSS basis, for only “fixed” mathematics will work. So what do we have? We have another case where the math doesn’t match the reality, only in reverse.
Not so. It’s not a Copernican belief system that forces people to think GSS are orbiting the earth, it’s the knowledge that if they weren’t orbiting the earth they’d drop like a rock (your desperate appeal to non-existent magical forces notwithstanding). Also, the people who actually operate the geostationary satellites know that their orbits aren’t perfectly circular, and they know that stationary objects don’t have an apogee and they don’t have a perigee, nor do they have to make stationkeeping maneuvers to counteract perturbations in their orbits.
As I mentioned in my first reply, if the earth is rotating, the GSS must remain in precise synchronization with the earth.
Actually, they can (and do) drift a little, but as long as they stay within the beamwidth of the ground antenna, there’s no problem.
The GSS must travel precisely at 6856 mph without deviation. If it slows down just 1/4 mph, it would throw the GSS off my one mile every four hours, or forty-two miles in a week, or 180 miles in a month, or 2,200 miles in a year.
Again you’re wrong. Remember Kepler’s second law. A satellite may slow down as it reaches apogee, but it’ll speed up again as it reaches perigee. It’s not possible for a satellite to slow down for a week, or a month, or a year unless its orbital period is measured in weeks, months, or years. A geostationary satellite needs to orbit the earth once every 23 hours, 55 minutes, and 4 seconds. If it speeds up and slows down a little during its orbit (which it does because its orbit is slightly elliptical) that’s okay.
As I said before, I think such precision is well nigh impossible to achieve, even with the repositioning thrusters. But for the sake of argument, let’s say that it can be achieved. Are there any other anomalies which dictate against it? Yes, there is one gigantic one written in all science books that teach about the earth’s rotation. All the books teach that the earth does not rotate steadily, but is somewhat spasmodic. The same is true for the moon. In fact, I have a book titled Newton’s Clock: Chaos in the Solar System by Ivars Peterson (1993) that lists all the perturbations of the earth, moon and other planets. Their motions are sometimes so unpredictable that scientists wonder how the solar system stays together. The author says that Newton himself thought that God had to intrude every so often to “fix” the solar system (pp. 16, 226). The famous physicist Poincare termed it “dynamical chaos.” At any rate, the point is that scientists believe that the earth’s rotation fluctuates periodically.
Good thing, then, that GSS have onboard propulsion systems to perform stationkeeping maneuvers.
So here’s the question? How is a satellite that is moving precisely at 6856 mph going to know when the earth is going to go into a spasmodic rotation? Not only would it have to know it, it would have to speed up or slow down in precise synchronization with the earth. Just one 1/4 mph difference for five seconds would throw it 10 miles off course. Do you know how many TV sets on earth would immediately see fuzz on their screen if that happened? Practically all of them, since dishes from all over the hemisphere are pointing to a specific point in the sky.
Actually, there’s much less precision required here than you seem to think. I’m sure you’ve seen houses with DirecTV dishes, haven’t you? Well, each of those dishes is aimed at the Directv 2 geostationary satellite. Do you think Harry Homeowner has NASA come out and align his dish for him? Do you have any idea how small a target a satellite is from 22,236 miles away, and how impossible it would be to align the dish if it had to be pointed right at it? Obviously, the beam from the satellite is wide enough that the antenna only has to be pointed in the general direction of the satellite.
As for the space shuttle going at 17,000 mph, you haven’t proven that it needs to attain that speed due solely to the Earth’s gravitational field. It is my contention that the Newtonian formulas you are using have no way of knowing what other forces (e.g., cosmic forces) are acting upon the space shuttle. Since Newton never explained what Gravity is, then neither he nor you are hardly in a position to tell us what components constitute his mathematical formula. I would also posit that speed is determined by an inertial frame of reference. NASA measures the speed of the shuttle against what they believe is a rotating earth which is moving at 1000 mph in the same direction as the shuttle. Since the shuttle orbits at 28.5 degrees of the equator, then it is close enough for us to say that the shuttle is really only going about 16,000 mph or less. You see, this is the problem you get into with a moving earth. You have no way to make measurements that are devoid of relativity.
So what? That’s just something you have to live with when you live on a rotating planet that’s orbiting a star. Sure, some calculations would be easier if the earth were stationary (and sometimes you can pretend that it is), but it’s really not that hard to take into account a rotating frame of reference. I know what I’m talking about when I say this because I have a degree in Engineering Science and Mechanics from Virginia Tech, and I studied dynamics for several years under Dr. L. Glenn Kraige. So I’ve had some experience with factoring in a rotating frame of reference when calculating velocity. It’s really not that hard to do. In fact, I recall that on one of my exams I had to figure out the velocity vector of an ant walking on a Ferris wheel on a rotating earth orbiting the sun. I got the answer right, too.
So what appears to be one speed, is really another speed.
Again, so what? Pilots make that kind of calculation all the time. If they’re flying into a 20 knot wind, for example, their airspeed indicator will tell them they’re going, say, 140 knots, when in reality they’re only going 120 knots over the ground. Life is complicated sometimes. We just have to deal with it.
You can do the same thing in your car. If, at the equator, you travel in your car from west to east at 60 mph, your speedometer tells you 60 mph, but, according to relativity theory, you can be considered going at 1060 mph, since you are moving with the earth’s rotation (or, by Einstein’s “equivalence principle” you can be considered stationary and the earth moving beneath you at 1060 mph).
All true. So what?
In fact, since in the heliocentric system the earth is moving around the sun at 66,000 mph, then you are really traveling at 67,060 mph in your car. And if you add the fact that the sun is supposedly going around the galaxy about 500,000 mph, then you are really going 567,060 mph. And if you add that the galaxies are receding from each other near the speed of light, well, you can see how fast one would be traveling.
Well, this is where a little common sense really helps. We may know, somewhere in the back of our mind, that the velocity of our car relative to the stars is really, really fast, but we shrug and say, so what? We just want to know when we’re going to get to Richmond, and so we’re content that our speedometer only shows us our velocity relative to I-95.
By the way, Hubble’s constant used to tell us that the galaxies were receding away less than the speed of light. But that was when we could only see about 500 or so megaparsecs into the universe. Now that we can see 500 gigaparsecs into the universe, Hubble’s constant means that the galaxies are receding at hundreds of times the speed of light. But if the galaxies are receding at the speed of light or faster, then that means we are moving at the speed of light or faster. Obviously, that is not the case. It’s no surprise, then, that Hubble’s “constant” is being constantly revised. Speaking of Hubble, did you ever wonder why the Hubble space telescope doesn’t take time-lapse photography of the earth to prove that the earth is rotating? A curious lacuna for you to answer.
I figure it’s either part of a vast government conspiracy to dupe people into believing that the earth rotates, or else NASA has better things to do with its resources than try to prove to the six living geocentrists that they’re wrong. Besides, weather satellites take time-lapse pictures of the earth all the time and that doesn’t prove anything to you. Why would it be any different if the pictures were taken by Hubble?
(Incidentally, using your formula of v = SQRT of Gm/r, let’s plug in the numbers. A speed of 17,000mph = v; the radius is 4000 miles of the earth’s radius plus the 300 miles for the altitude of the shuttle. The square root of Gm divided by the radius of 4,300 gives 1,250,000,000,000 as the value of Gm for the velocity of 17,000 mph. Applying the same formula to the GPS satellites that, from NASA records, travel around the earth in 12 hours. First, since the GPS are at 11,000 miles above the earth, if we add 4000 miles of earth’s radius to the 11,000, we have 15,000 miles of radius (give or take for the elliptical orbit). Using 2 x Pi x radius = 94,200 miles of circumference the GPS must travel per day. Since it travels this distance in 12 hours, then it must be traveling at 94,200 divided by 12 which = 7,850 mph. But if you plug in the same numbers into your v = SQRT of Gm/r formula, you get a v = 9,128 mph (the square root of 1.25 x 10^12 divided by 15000 = 9,128). So you have a difference of 1,278mph. Something’s not right).
It’s your math that’s not right. You’ve rounded so much that your answer is within the margin of error. For one thing, the universal gravitational constant is 0.00000000006673 N*m2/kg2. That’s an extremely small and precise number. You can’t just back it out of an equation using rough approximations like 300, 4,000, and 17,000. Also, GPS satellites travel in an ellipse, so you can’t use 2*π*r to figure out the circumference of their orbit. The formula I used is an approximation. If you want a more precise calculation, you have to use more accurate numbers, and you have to take into account additional parameters (such as the elliptical nature of the orbit). And by the way, it’s very difficult to calculate the circumference of an ellipse (you have to use elliptic integrals). If you want to run these calculations using real numbers be my guest. But since you’ve already agreed that Newton’s math works as well as yours, I don’t see the point.
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You can verify Telstar’s velocity yourself simply by applying the elementary laws of orbital mechanics to the known parameters of the satellite’s orbit (i.e., its distance from the earth).
No, that’s begging the question - trying to prove a point by means of an unproven assumption.
How many successful satellite launches is it going to take to prove that these assumptions are correct? How many flights to the moon, or Mars, or Saturn does NASA have to pull off without a hitch before you’ll quit calling their trajectory equations “unproven assumptions”? If anything in this discussion is an “unproven assumption” it’s your claim that geostationary satellites don’t fall because there just happens to be a mysterious gravitational and/or magnetic band at 22,236 miles above the earth.
No, you have no way of knowing that a universe without the sun, moon and stars is going to produce a particular kind of orbit around the earth. That is precisely the point I was arguing previously. If the sun, moon and stars act as additional forces against any object that moves around the earth, then your system needs to be reworked. It is because of them, along with the earth, that the orbit of a satellite is determined, and that is why your Newtonian formulas work. If you believe it is only the earth, then you must prove it.
No problem. Consider the case where the moon and the sun both line up on the same side of the earth (e.g., there is a solar eclipse).
It is a fact that in such circumstance earth-orbiting satellites continue to follow the same path when they’re on the side of the earth away from the sun and moon (point A) as they do when they’re between the earth and the sun and moon (point B). That proves that the effects of the sun and the moon on the satellite’s orbit are negligible. Now, you might more plausibly claim that the stars exert a significant influence, because they surround the earth-moon system more or less symmetrically. But here’s the problem: Newton’s equations also correctly predict the orbital altitude and velocity of objects orbiting the moon (such as the Apollo command module). The effect of the stars on a satellite orbiting the moon should be the same as it is on an object orbiting the earth. But objects orbiting the moon follow very different trajectories than they do when they orbit the earth. Their motion is related to the moon’s mass, just as Newton predicted.
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Of course. The only force acting on a satellite in orbit is the force of the earth’s gravity. It’s true that because earth’s mass isn’t uniformly distributed, there are minor fluctuations in the gravitational field, and this can cause minor variances in the satellite’s orbit. But that’s why satellites carry an onboard propulsion system with enough fuel to make minor adjustments to its orbit for many years.
You say, “Of course. The only force acting on a satellite in orbit is the force of the earth’s gravity,” but you don’t know that, you only assume it. Why can I say this? Two reasons: (1) You can’t explain what gravity is (all you have given is a mathematical formula of the results of some force that seems to attract objects), so how can you tell me Earth’s “gravity” is the only force acting on a satellite? (2) you have not provided anything to discount the forces of the stars as being a major factor in satellite operation. You’ve just assumed that all the forces are from the Earth, but you don’t know that.
I can easily prove that the stars can’t account for the motion of actual earth-orbiting satellites. You argue that the “forces of the stars” just happen to offset the force of earth’s gravity at 22,236 miles. If so, then objects below that point would be drawn toward the earth, objects above that point would be drawn away from the earth, and the geostationary satellites that are located precisely at that equilibrium point are suspended between the two forces. But this model is disproved by the orbit of the Chandra X-ray Observatory, shown below:
That satellite has a highly elliptical orbit whose perigee is at 86,487 miles – well beyond the alleged 22,236 mile equilibrium point. Now, if your theory were correct, when the Chandra satellite passes the point of equilibrium between the earth’s gravity and the inertial force from the stars (at 22,236 miles), it ought to keep right on going and never look back. But it doesn’t do that. At 86,487 miles, it turns around and heads back to earth. Therefore, even at that great distance, almost four times as far away from earth as the supposed equilibrium point between the earth’s gravity and the inertial force from the stars, the earth’s gravity is still strong enough to turn Chandra around and pull it back. But if the earth’s gravity is still strong enough at 86,487 miles to reverse the direction of a satellite that’s trying to run away, and pull it back to earth, it must also be true that at only 22,236 miles (four times closer to earth) the earth’s gravity would be easily strong enough to pull down the geostationary satellites, which aren’t speeding away from the earth, like Chandra, but are supposedly just sitting there.
It seems to me that the trajectory of the Chandra X-Ray Observatory offers a direct, empirical disproof of your theory. Clearly, there is no force at 22,236 miles sufficient to overpower the earth’s gravity and keep a satellite from being pulled down. If there were, it would also be sufficient to keep the earth’s gravity from turning Chandra around and pulling it down, especially since Chandra is four times farther away. Therefore, the fact that the geostationary satellites don’t fall proves that they are in orbit, as NASA has claimed all along, and the fact that they appear not to move relative to the surface of the earth proves that the earth is rotating.
Now let me take this opportunity to elaborate on the alternative to Newtonian mechanics - with a system that actually explains what Gravity is, rather than just put its results in mathematical formulas, as Newton did.
I’m all ears.
If the aether theory is correct, then Newton’s laws of gravitation need to be understood as the result of the effects of the aether. LaSage (1770) showed, mathematically and physically, that aether exerts a pressure on objects, e.g., pressure on spherical masses like the earth or the sun.
Question: If aether is an actual substance, like air, it will put a drag on spacecraft and planets flying through it, will it not?
On a single sphere the pressure is equal all around the sphere. But when two spherical objects come close to each other, one sphere will block some of the aether from colliding with the other, and vice-versa, which values are determined by their mass and shape.
Is this “aether” in motion? Where does it come from that two objects can “block” it from colliding with each other?
As I said earlier, the weight of an object on earth is determined by how many corpuscles of aether are hitting it from above as opposed to below.
If that is true, then shouldn’t I be able to increase my weight just by lying down, thus increasing the surface area of my body exposed to the aether? And shouldn’t I weigh the same on the moon as I do on the earth?
This also explains why atomic clocks in the upper atmosphere run 46,000 nanoseconds faster than at ground level. (Einstein attribute such anomalies to Relativity; non-Einsteinians attribute it to less dense aether). Because of its physical, not theoretical basis, the LaSage theory can account for the peculiar behavior of pendulums just before an eclipse or within deep mine shafts, and these movements were actually predicted by LaSage, whereas Newtonian and Einsteinian theories did not account for them. In fact, the ultrasensitive Cavendish torsion balance has detected discrepancies of up to .37% in the inverse square law proposed by Newton, yet accounted for by the LaSage model with no discrepancy. The Cavendish torsion balance has also calculated a variation in the speed of falling objects, opposite the Galileo “Pisa” experiment. Those objects that are elongated fall slower than those not elongated. The LaSage theory explains this, since the aether is hitting more surface area of the elongated object.
Again, if weight is determined by the surface area exposed to the aether, shouldn’t I be able to alter my weight just by altering my position? Is this why skydivers fall slower if they lie flat than if they dive straight down? Why doesn’t this work on a scale?
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Not really. Thrust is only required to maintain speed if there’s some force acting to retard that speed, which there isn’t in space. Once a satellite is accelerated to its proper orbital velocity by a booster rocket, its inertia will carry it around the earth for years. Haven’t you noticed that space stations like Mir and the International Space Station orbit the earth for decades even though they don’t have an engine?
Yes but they don’t maintain the same speed. The orbit decays bit by bit.
Yes, because of atmospheric drag on the vehicle.
The only reason Mir could stay up is that it kept lowering its orbit to compensate for the slowing of its speed. That would never work for a GSS that depends on keeping the same orbit so that it can transmit the same signals to Earth each second. For the GPS, I already quoted to you the statement from the Physics Today article which states that in order to keep a Keplerian orbit the GPS must speed up and slow down at regular intervals.
The GPS satellites are in much higher orbits than Mir. They won’t come down for a very long time.
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Well, that’s exactly what heliocentrism asserts. It asserts that the stars are an inertial frame of reference and that the earth moves and rotates within this frame. It is geocentrism that denies the stars form an inertial frame of reference. In geocentrism the earth itself is an inertial framework. Everything else is in non-inertial acceleration.
No, that’s not what I meant. I realize that heliocentrists refer to the “fixed stars,” but what I am saying is that they do not account for the forces of these cosmic masses on the principles of motion we see on earth.
Of course not. Remember that Newton’s law of gravitation tells us that the force of gravity is proportional to the product of the masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. It’s true that the stars are quite massive, but they’re so far away (except for the sun) that their effect is negligible.
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And I still say that unless you can prove the existence of a hypothetical gravitational force that just happens to precisely balance the earth’s gravity at an altitude of 22,240 miles, which by a remarkable coincidence is exactly the altitude at which a satellite would orbit the earth once a day, a stationary satellite over a stationary earth is an impossibility.
The Challenge was for you to prove your case.
I have done so. Your theory cannot account for the elliptical orbits of the geostationary satellites. Your only response has been a lot of hand-waving about magical forces that just happen to exist right where your theory has a gaping hole, and that just happen to be exactly as strong as you need them to be to close that hole. But even this lame attempt to prop up the geocentric theory is disproved by the Chandra X-ray Observatory, which orbits in a way that isn’t possible if you were right about the existence of a strong “gravitational and/or electromagnetic band” precisely 22,236 miles above the earth.
My contention is that no one can prove Heliocentrism, and therefore we are not obliged to interpret passages from the Bible concerning the sun’s movement as being metaphors; nor do we have to apologize for our Catholic Church when they officially rejected, by the mouths and signatures of two Popes, against Copernicanism; nor do we have to apologize for the Fathers of the Church as being nincompoops for believing that the sun went around the earth when they were going against the Greeks who espoused Heliocentrism.
Now I think we’re getting to the real issue. I strongly suspect that the real reason you think geocentrism is true has nothing to do with corpuscles of aether or Planck lengths, but it’s simply because you believe the Bible says the earth doesn’t move. Case closed. But I don’t agree. The Bible, like most literature, is full of phenomenological language. That is, it describes things according to their appearance. We do the same thing today when we speak of “sunrise” even though we don’t believe the sun actually rises. (Well, most of us don’t.) Likewise, the Bible says, for example, that the disciples had trouble staying awake because “their eyes were heavy” (Matt. 26:43). I don’t think this means their eyes literally weighed more than they weighed earlier in the day.
Regarding the opinions of those two popes, first I’d like to know which two popes you have in mind. And I would like for you to show me that they bound the Church to adhere to the geocentric system. Failing this, I’d simply say that getting elected Bishop of Rome doesn’t qualify one as an expert in cosmology. Our faith obliges us to assent to the teachings of the bishops in union with the pope when they speak definitively on matters of faith and morals, not math and science. However, if you think papal statements are determinative in this area, what do you make of Pope Urban VIII’s statement that the theory of the earth’s motion “had not been and could not be condemned as heretical” (See Encyclopedia Britannica, “Galileo”)? What do you make of the fact that Copernicus’ book was removed from the index of forbidden books in 1758?
As for the Fathers, I see no reason to view them as “nincompoops” because they believed in a geocentric universe (assuming they did). They probably believed lots of things that seem silly to us now. But so what? They were not scientists. They didn’t have geostationary satellites and Foucault pendulums. What they had was the deposit of the Christian faith, which was given to show us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go (to paraphrase Cdl. Baronius). As St. Augustine put it, “One does not read in the Gospel that the Lord said: ’I will send you the Paraclete who will teach you about the course of the sun and moon.’ For he willed to make them Christians, not mathematicians.” I urge you to heed the warning of Pius XII in Divino Afflante Spiritu (1943) that the true sense of a biblical passage is not always obvious, as the sacred writers made full use of the idioms of their time and place.
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I don’t understand your use of terminology here. An “inertial framework” is simply a coordinate system that is not accelerating. Either it’s moving at a constant velocity, or it’s stationary. Therefore, I don’t understand what you mean when you say “the gravity of the stars . . . provide[s] the inertial framework for any moving object on or near the earth.” In a true inertial framework, all objects will obey the law of inertia and they won’t spontaneously change their velocity in response to apparent forces. Only real forces will alter their velocity. That’s yet another way we can demonstrate that the earth moves, by the way. The rotation of hurricanes, deflections in long-range projectile motion, etc., are caused by the “coriolis effect,” which is an inertial (i.e., apparent) force, the existence of which proves that the earth is not an inertial frame of reference but is in motion. If your theory were right, there would be no inertial forces on earth and it would be unnecessary to compensate for the earth’s rotation when targeting ICBMs, for example.
First, even if there was such a Coriolis effect, you have no way of proving whether it is attributable to the earth rotating or the stars rotating against a stationary earth. Second, the Coriolis force you are proposing has inherent contradictions. If you claim that projectiles must be adjusted due to the earth’s rotation, then this means that flying objects fly independently against the rotation of the earth.
On the contrary, the Coriolis effect requires that a projectile (or aircraft) moves with the earth’s rotation. As the projectile changes latitude, the velocity of the ground beneath it changes, leading to the so-called “Coriolis effect.”
If that is the case, then an airplane traveling from NY to LA, against the rotation of the earth, should arrive many hours before a plane traveling from LA to NY, but that is not the case.
Of course not.
All other things being equal, both planes take the same amount of time to arrive at their destination. Now some scientists try to explain this by claiming that the planes are within the “envelope” of the earth’s gravity, but then they have no explanation why ICBM’s, which are also in the “envelope,” must compensate for the earth’s rotation. (Yet I would submit that the textbooks which claim they are compensating for the Coriolis effect do so in the context of two moving objects, not against the Earth).
First of all, aircraft sitting on the ground rotate along with the earth. The atmosphere also rotates along with the earth. When an aircraft takes off it doesn’t suddenly stop relative to space while the earth rushes by at 1,000 mph. (Trust me on this, I have a pilot’s license). Further, according to The University of Brunswick Geodesy Group’s “Online Tutorial in Precision Navigation,” modern aircraft Integrated Navigation Systems do take into account the coriolis effect.
Here’s another variation of the same problem. If the Coriolis applies to the rotation of the earth, then why doesn’t the atmosphere (the clouds, especially) react in a Coriolis fashion relative to the Earth?
It does. It’s the rotation of the earth (and the Coriolis effect) that accounts for the large-scale circulation patterns in the atmosphere. For a detailed discussion of this see: http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Atmosphere/instructor/wind-01.html.
For example, if the earth is rotating at 1000 mph, should there not be a constant east-to-west drag on the atmosphere so that clouds are always moving at rapid speed from east to northwest, west, or southwest, but never from west to northeast, east, or southeast? Due to the your Coriolis effect, the clouds should always be moving away from us, and with motions at variance with the Earth. But that is not what we see. We often see clouds motionless in the sky for hours. How does modern physics explain this?
Simple. The atmosphere rotates along with the earth. Unequal heating of the atmosphere between the equator and the poles causes north-south circulation, and the rotation of the earth causes hemispherically-dependent rotational circulation.
They do so by claiming that the atmosphere is in an “inertial envelope” within the earth’s gravity. They are forced to this conclusion, for to postulate otherwise would leave them without an explanation for the movement of clouds. But if the atmosphere is in an “inertial envelope” with the earth, then how is that possible if projectiles shot from a stationary cannon must supposedly compensate for the Coriolis effect in order to hit their target? You can’t have it both ways, Gary. If the Coriolis effect is true for your concept of the cannon projectile, it must be true for the clouds, since both are within the earth’s gravitational envelope.
It is true for the clouds. It’s what causes hurricanes to rotate, and it’s what causes the general rotational circulation patterns in the atmosphere, as explained at the web page to which I referred above.
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At any rate, your claim that the gravity of the stars acts on “any moving object on or near the earth” is a disproof of your own theory. The stars move from east to west in both hemispheres, and therefore their gravity cannot account for the fact that the Coriolis effect works in the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere than it does in the northern hemisphere.
No one has ever proven that circular currents always go in opposite directions in the respective hemispheres, nor has anyone proven that the Coriolis causes said directions. That is a myth pure and simple.
Then it should be very easy for you to disprove. All you have to do is show me one hurricane that ever rotated clockwise in the Northern hemisphere, or counter-clockwise in the Southern hemisphere.
I have reams of documentation on that. It’s the same myth regarding water going down a drain counterclockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern hemisphere. It is a proven fact that water does not always go counterclockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern. The direction of spin has only to do with the shape of the container, the original direction of water, the tilt of the container, and other such ambient issues.
I know that. That’s why I mentioned hurricanes, not toilets. I’m well aware that Coriolis acceleration is much too subtle to have any impact on the flow of water in a sink. But it does affect large-scale events like hurricanes. As I said, if you can show me just one hurricane that rotated clockwise in the Northern hemisphere, or counter-clockwise in the Southern hemisphere, you will have proved your point.
Most honest scientists who know anything about Coriolis will tell you that the forces of Coriolis caused by a rotating earth would be much too small to effect the way water goes down a drain or how hurricanes form their direction.
It’s too small to effect water in a drain, but it does affect the rotation of hurricanes.
In fact, I just recently had a friend of mine in Australia do an experiment with his drain. He wrote back and told me that each time the water went down, in an undisturbed and level tank, it went counterclockwise the very direction you claim that is supposed to happen in the northern hemisphere only.
I make no such claim. I’m well aware that Coriolis acceleration is too subtle to effect the flow of water in a sink. But it certainly does affect intercontinental missiles and hurricanes.
There are tons of articles on this issue. Most scientists say it has nothing to do with Coriolis or a rotating earth.
If you’re talking about water in a sink, I agree. If you’re talking about the rotation of hurricanes, I say name some meteorologists who claim this has nothing to do with the rotation of the earth.
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Further, when the Apollo spacecraft went from the earth to the moon, its velocity was completely accounted for by the gravitational attraction of the earth and the moon. (The spacecraft was continuously decelerating as it moved away from the earth until it reached a point where the lunar gravity was stronger than the terrestrial gravity, at which point the spacecraft started to accelerate toward the moon). If the stars were exerting the same force on the Apollo spacecraft that they allegedly exert on a geosynchronous satellite, the Apollo spacecraft would have been going significantly faster than expected when it reached the moon.
Glad you brought this up, because using your own logic, the moon causes more problems for you than you think it does for me. There is a neutral gravity zone between the Earth and the Moon. NASA writes: “On a direct line from the Earth to the moon, equal gravitational effects would be found at approximately 216,000 miles, given a mean distance of 240,000 miles between the two bodies” (Wash, DC, 4-5-1990). Despite this, most scientists, in order to explain the tides, believe that the gravity of the moon somehow bursts through the neutral gravity zone (24,000 miles from the moon), and reaches all the way through the next 216,000 miles of earth’s gravity to grab hold of the earth’s water and pull it up each day!
The “neutral gravity zone” between the earth and the moon doesn’t mark the point where the moon’s gravity ceases to exist, it marks the point where the earth’s gravity becomes stronger. On the surface of the earth, the moon still exerts an influence, but it’s small compared to the influence of the earth’s gravity. That’s why the oceans just bulge a little; they don’t go flying off into space. For more on this, see: http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronomy/moon/Tides.shtml.
Yet Franklyn Branley in The Moon: Earth’s Natural Satellite says: “The tide-raising force of the moon is very small indeed, compared to the force of gravity. The tide-raising force of the moon is about 1/9,000,000 that of the earth’s gravity” (p. 85). Gee! 9 million to one. Some force! That couldn’t even pick up a feather on the earth, let alone oceans of water. Obviously, gravity doesn’t explain the tides.
You fail to understand that the force of gravity is proportional to the product of the masses. Both the moon and the oceans are massive, therefore there’s significant gravitational attraction. A feather has almost no mass, and therefore the moon exerts almost no gravitational attraction on it.
Here’s another anomaly for you. The fact that the earth supposedly rotates at 1000 mph at its equator exerts a force on objects to fly off the earth.
That’s right, and that’s why the earth’s gravity is measurably lighter at the equator than it is at the poles. The acceleration of gravity at the poles is 9.83200 m/s2, but at the equator it’s 9.78100 m/s2. How does your system explain that?
Science claims that gravity holds the objects on the earth so they don’t fly off. But compare this. On the moon, the gravity is one sixth of the earth’s. Apparently, the men who walk on the moon need only a proportional amount of weight in their suits to simulate earth’s gravity. But the moon does not rotate and therefore there is no centrifugal force to throw them off, and therefore they would not need to have additional weight in their suits to reach a simulated earth gravity, since the centrifugal force created by going around at 1000 mph is far greater than one sixth the earth’s gravity. Gravity, without a compensating centrifugal force on the non-rotating moon, would flatten them like a pancake.
Wow, I’m impressed that you were able to cram so many errors into such a short paragraph. :-) Let’s take them in order. First of all, the Apollo spacesuits were not weighted to simulate earth gravity. Why would NASA want to make it more difficult for the astronauts to move around? And why would they want to lug all that useless weight to the moon? The Apollo spacesuits, complete with life-support system, weighed 180 lbs. on earth, which means they weighed only about 30 lbs. on the moon. According to Apollo 11 astronaut Buzz Aldrin, he and his spacesuit weighed 360 lbs. on earth, but only 60 lbs. on the moon. That’s why the astronauts were able to bounce around so effortlessly. Second, the moon does rotate – once a day in your system; once a month in mine. Third, the centrifugal force at the equator is only 3.38 cm/sec2, which is about three-tenths of one percent of the earth’s gravity. That’s not “far greater than one sixth of the earth’s gravity,” as you claimed; it’s far less than one sixth. Fourth, if a “compensating centrifugal force” were necessary to keep people from being squished by gravity, then the scientists who are at the south pole right now would be squished, because there’s no rotation, and thus no centrifugal force, at the poles. Things do weigh more at the poles, which is yet further proof that the earth rotates, but the effect isn’t all that dramatic.
What this means, Gary, is that in comparison with the non-rotating moon’s gravity, the earth cannot be rotating.
Nope, what it means is that the effect of the earth’s rotation is negligible compared with the pull of its gravity. The effect is measurable, which proves my case, but it’s still negligible.
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As I’ve already said, a satellite in orbit encounters almost no resistance to its motion, not from “centrifugal effects,” not from “coriolis effects,” and certainly not from “tidal forces of the stars,” which would be quite negligible given their distance. That’s why a space station like Russia’s Mir was able to stay in orbit for decades without an engine. There was almost no force acting against it to retard its motion. (Because of its relatively low altitude, there was some minuscule atmospheric drag on the station, which eventually brought it down, but if it had been orbiting at a geosynchronous altitude, it would have orbited probably forever.)
You have no way of proving what kept it up there. Your answer is inertia, but that is also a fictitious force.
Inertia is not a force. Inertia just means that a body in motion will tend to keep moving unless something acts to slow it down, speed it up, or change its path.
Newton never explained why a body had inertia or momentum.
He probably never explained why it has mass or dimension either. But did he need to? You prove the existence of inertia every time you step on the brakes in your car. Don’t you feel your body pulling forward against the seatbelt? That’s inertia.
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I don’t get it. You complain (wrongly) that orbital motion is caused by “centrifugal force,” which is a fictitious force, but then you explain the motion (or lack of it) of a geosynchronous satellite by appealing to “inertial force from the stars”? Surely you know that the phrase “inertial force” means “fictitious force,” don’t you?
In your system it is fictitious because you believe only in relative motion. You have no absolute motion in your system. You can’t have a real centrifugal force if you believe all bodies are in relative motion, since the supposed centrifugal force can be exchanged from one body to another. That’s what Einstein’s relativity is all about. But in my system, the centrifugal force is real, because I have one point in the universe which is stationary, and that is the Earth. Everything else moves. Thus, when I say the stars have an inertial force, that is because the stars are measured against a stationary Earth.
In my system I can easily take the stars to be fixed because their motion is so slow it would take generations to even notice it.
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At any rate, don’t you think it’s a rather remarkable coincidence that the alleged “inertial force from the stars” just happens to precisely balance the gravity of the earth at exactly the same altitude at which a satellite would orbit the earth once a day if the earth rotated? Doesn’t that raise a red flag for you? It sure does for me. Sounds like wishful thinking.
No, red flag. Your math works, but so does my math.
Not without appealing to imaginary forces that just happen to be exactly where you need them to be and exactly as strong as you need them to be.
But whose math represents reality is another story altogether. If the GSS can be explained from the perspective of Planck-dimension aether in a rotating universe — an aether that was supported by some of the best minds in physics until Einstein decided arbitrarily to reject that the earth was standing still - then I have no red flags at all.
In that case I’m eager to see how you explain the fact that non-orbiting satellites nevertheless have an apogee and a perigee.
But I’ll tell you who should have red flags, however. You! Unless you can adequately explain the anomalies of the GSS that I posed to you in the beginning of this essay (anti-Keplerian motion; Earth-fixed calculations in repositioning; Earth’s rotational perturbations) then I think it is you who has the problem.
I’ve explained all of it and more. I’ve also shown that geostationary satellites are in elliptical orbits that vary from one satellite to another and that cause the satellites to move slightly relative to the surface of the earth in a daily rhythm. I don’t think you can account for this, but I suspect you’ll try. I’m guessing you’ll claim it’s caused by vibrations in the aether or something.
All your system really has is mathematical formulas, but your system doesn’t explain much of how things work. You should also see a red flag when you notice that all the Church Fathers were Geocentrists;
None of them believed in germs either, but I’m still going to take my antibiotics.
the Church officially condemned Copernicanism by two Popes in formal decrees;
Wrong. The Church has never condemned Copernicanism. (See the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Galileo.) This is why I and other Catholics feel the need to oppose you on this topic. You are misrepresenting our faith and making it a laughingstock besides.
the Bible says the earth stands still and the sun moves;
Which, when you get right down to it, is what I think is your real reason for advocating geocentrism. You’re stuck in a fundamentalist mindset that ignores the Church’s own teachings about how to interpret Scripture.
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The moon does pull on the satellite, but the effect is negligible. Recall that the gravitational attraction between two bodies is proportional to the product of their masses, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. The earth and the moon are both quite massive, and so they exert significant gravitational forces on each other. But a satellite’s mass is negligible in comparison. Telstar 6, for example, weights just 3,700 kg. Assuming that this satellite is orbiting at a geosynchronous altitude of 35,870 km, it’s easy to calculate that at the point in its orbit where it’s closest to the moon the gravitational force exerted on the satellite by the moon would be a whopping 15 grams. That’s half an ounce. And that’s why you can neglect the gravitational attraction of the moon when you plot a satellite’s orbit.
Half an ounce! Congratulations! You just wiped out science’s only explanation for the tides, since obviously, a 15 gram force could never lift millions of tons of water to make the tides on earth. Your system is just filled with these kinds of contradictions.
I said before that gravitational attraction is proportional to the product of the masses of the two objects. The mass of a satellite is negligible compared to the moon, and that’s why the gravitational attraction between them is only 15 grams. But the earth’s oceans are quite massive. The gravitational attraction between the moon and millions of tons of water is going to be significantly greater than the attraction between the moon and a little satellite.
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